Curse

MarkyX · Oct 01, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Ah...the latest update. Guild Wars is kind of like the really crappy ex-girlfriend you've been on and off with for the past 10 years. One minute she is a complete utter psycho bitch, the next, you just want to spend all of your time with her.

Recently, GW had a nice massive update, and it has turned from 'utter bitch' to 'don't leave me please...I need you...I love you!'. Only thing missing is the pink flowers and the box of chocolates in front of the computer.

However, as with every update with every game out there, they are those who complain about the changes. The nerfs, the interface, the buffs, and so forth.

Case in point, the profession that got whacked with the nerf bat more then Max Payne, the almighty mesmer, caused a huge stir among the mesmers out there.

People complain about the whole 'energy denial' thing being a thing of the past. You couldn't be further then the truth.

Energy denial, pre-update, could've been with two skills. You could use energy drain + arcane echo and you would shut down an entire build. Not only that, but you still had full energy, allowing you to continue mess around with the team. In other words, you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up an entire character on the field, without any real damage to yourself, but you can continue harassing the rest of the team.

When you make a build, you need to focus on counters, defences, and offences. If you wanted to be VERY good at a specific offence, you would focus the majority of your skillbar on it. A *good* interrupt ranger would, for example, need to bring three or four interrupts. An ele would need to bring more than two skills to be considered a threat on the field.

So why should the mesmer be able to be threat, shut down an entire class, with only two skills? If you want to play energy denial now, you need to use *gasp*, other skills like energy burn, power leak, and so forth. An interrupt ranger cannot be good with only two interrupt, so a mesmer shouldn't be energy denial shouldn't be good with just two.

Yes, the mesmer got slapped with the nerf bat, but they are still playable. If you want to do enery denial, you need to invest into more then just two skills.

Moving right along, the ranger. Some nice buffs here and the change of the interrupts.

As a hardcore ranger, I'll say this for the record: I'm glad they got smacked with the nerf bat. The interrupting spiking was mildly retarded and only those who complain about it were never, ever good with the ranger anywho. I play an awesome interrupt, and now with the recent 'read the wind' buff (a change that should've happened in release), I can use my recurve bow to interrupt the holy hell out of monks, necros, and eles in a large crowd of people. If I play my game right, I will single handly screw up an entire class while the other team scrambles wondering what the hell is going on and why they aren't getting healed. Concussion ftw.

Monks had some buffs and nerfs as well. A lot of people complained about the recent aegis nerf, and I'm here to say that this is something that should've happened a long time ago.

Aegis, much like nature's renewel, shut down classes. You were literally immune to warriors and rangers, shutting those classes down with a single enchantment. Yes, they are specific skills that can go through the 'blocking', however they were hardly enough damage to even make the monk flinch. It was a shutdown protection.

The matter of the fact is, most monk spells have very fast casting, so there isn't much room for counters or interrupts. Rend enchantments, while awesome, had a long recharge. Strip enchantment and shatter only work if the monks didn't have something on top of aegis. And even if aegis did disappear, a smart prot monk would slap in guardian, giving it enough time to cast another aegis (cycle aegis). Now with the two second casting, prot monks need to smart and know when to cast it when they are free from mesmers and interrupt rangers. A good player will know when to use their skills, while the bad one simply bashes the buttons and hopes the target dies (or lives)

Guild wars is somewhat like chess. You need to think your moves before you execute them. You need to do combos, defences, counters, and offences. You can decieve your enemies, overwhelm them with offence, or tire them out.

Which brings me to my next wonderful point. Why is it that more then half the builds or 'needs' out there are really crappy all-offensive builds with little to no defence?

The infamous W/R. Yes, you can deal an insane amount of damage, assuming your victim doesn't move the opposite direction or you get hexed by shadow of fear. In a sense, the W/R is everyone's bitch. They go out all offensive, yet do not have any defences against conditions, hexes, or even running away. Yet this is probably one of the most requested builds out there.

Why kids? I mean, I even asked a group leader who wanted a W/R, and he said 'he wanted someone who can deal damage'. When I told him my W/mes build, one that can deal some decent damage, doesn't require ald build up, can give defence to his own team, and remove hex/enchantments, he automatically told me I sucked ass and shouldn't be playing warrior.

Let's just forgot the fact that I used this guy in team arena and got 40 consective wins. Rangers had nothing on our team.

Let me tell you a little trade secret when it comes to make a good build: A good build is the one that will have some sort of defence, yet make enough offence to be a threat. My W/mes has only TWO attack skills, but even though he doesn't use deep wound, crippling, or bleeding, if I start banging onto the monk, he is going to start healing himself. Not incredible damage, but enough to be considered a problem for the team.

If your build starts relying on the monks too much...guess what? You'll die. I've seen mesmers who use inspiration laugh at me when I suggested to put spirit of failure in their build. Rangers who refuse to use dryder's defence or lightning reflexes, yet they think conjure flame is going to save them from an axe warrior. No price of failure on a cursing necro? You're dead.

This is why teams lose. People don't like the idea of not killing a target within a 0.5 seconds, yet when they face a defensive team, they die and start blaming each other.

A good build is the one with offences, defences, and counters. As well as being STRONG in the role they play for the team build. The more you burdern the monks, the bigger chance you'll die quickly. Monks are nothing more then a SAFETY NET for when the shit hits the fan. They are not there for your well-being, you are. Defensive skills and counters allow you to delay the death so the monks would be like "WTF...gotta heal that biatch".

Marky out.

- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (a dark tech fantasy webcomic)

Finch · Oct 01, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

very good post, the point you made about energy denial was the perfect explanation of why they nerfed it.

calamitykell · Oct 01, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

An excellent read. Very great points.

tomcruisejr · Oct 01, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

two thumbs up, man.

Hadzabi · Oct 01, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Without doubt one of the best posts I've ever read on these forums !
Thank's for sharing

Charcoal Ann · Oct 01, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

nice to see someone with their head screwed on right.

good man.

berko · Oct 01, 2005, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Sweet post.

arredondo · Oct 01, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

That's an incomplete analysis. The OP didn't play out the entire scenario with energy denial Mesmers.

Firstly, AE+Energy Drain was a max -21Ex2. Only Rangers and Warriors, the least likely targets of a dual E.Drain, would be at 0E. My Mesmer has a 55E/69E setup sop I was always able to function in this scenario. As a sometime Energy Denier myself, before if I used AE+E.Drain (<--- an elite, which is MEANT to have impact), I'd take the enemy down to low energy, that's supposedly a problem right? But then what? I can't use that combo again for at least 50 seconds so how was this an abusive issue?

An Energy Drain under AE can only be used once during AE's 20 seconds, then AE has to recharge another 30 seconds or a total of 50 seconds recharge per use. In the meantime, my target lost a max -42E, but in 10 seconds a caster will have gotten back 13E, and after 20 secs a total of 26E is added to his pool which wasn't drained. By the time I can come around 50 seconds later to do the combo to him again, he will have gotten an added 65E naturally. He was hardly shut down for the length of a match (I need more energy denial skills for that), and during that 50 second span I am unable to do it to anyone else.

How does that require the nerf it received? If you truly wanted to control the energy of multiple targets, you always had to bring in a lot of related spells, but your damage output was low so it was fair. And while losing 20% energy from a lot of casts is tough on an enemy I agree, it's not nearly as bad as being out of 80% health and is quicker to recover.

I've been drained of all my energy before but I can get back to work in as much time as it takes to wait out a Back Fire hex on me. The nerf was far more severe than needed to E.Tap and E.Drain. The 30 second recharge change would've been a balanced approach if they just left the drain amount on the enemy alone.

MarkyX · Oct 01, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Firstly, AE+Energy Drain was a max -21Ex2. Only Rangers and Warriors, the least likely targets of a dual E.Drain, would be at 0E. My Mesmer has a 55E/69E setup sop I was always able to function in this scenario. As an Energy Denier myself, before if I used AE+E.Drain (<--- an elite, which is SUPPOSED to have impact), I'd take the enemy down to low energy, that's supposedly a problem right? But then what? I can't use that combo again for at least 50 seconds so how was this an abusive issue.

Elites are supposed to be powerful, but they are not supposed to be "end all, be all" of skills.

Lingering curse is powerful, but a simple hex removal will get rid of it.

Eviscerate is awesome, but can be evaded or block, and requires heavy ald.

The thing is, energy drain and tap had no counter to it. The only way to defend against an e-drainer is to simply drain them back.

And even though you don't completely drain the target, the point is that they are denied that energy, while you get your energy back. Was there any real sacrifice in your part? No. You used your skills, screwed him up, and you still have your energy. You can now energy burn another target, back fire another, or use diversion. Meanwhile, your victim has to wait to recharge. By the time he is fully charged, guess what? E-drain again.

What made it worse is that even monks could play energy denial as well.

Anyone with any experience in PvP, including top guilds like IVEX and Nuclear Launch Detected would back me up on this. Energy denial is a very powerful tactic, but the pre-update made it too powerful.

Akathrielah · Oct 01, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Why is it that more then half the builds or 'needs' out there are really crappy all-offensive builds with little to no defence?

The infamous W/R. Yes, you can deal an insane amount of damage, assuming your victim doesn't move the opposite direction or you get hexed by shadow of fear. In a sense, the W/R is everyone's bitch. They go out all offensive, yet do not have any defences against conditions, hexes, or even running away. Yet this is probably one of the most requested builds out there.

Why kids? I mean, I even asked a group leader who wanted a W/R, and he said 'he wanted someone who can deal damage'. When I told him my W/mes build, one that can deal some decent damage, doesn't require ald build up, can give defence to his own team, and remove hex/enchantments, he automatically told me I sucked ass and shouldn't be playing warrior.

Let's just forgot the fact that I used this guy in team arena and got 40 consective wins. Rangers had nothing on our team.

Let me tell you a little trade secret when it comes to make a good build: A good build is the one that will have some sort of defence, yet make enough offence to be a threat. My W/mes has only TWO attack skills, but even though he doesn't use deep wound, crippling, or bleeding, if I start banging onto the monk, he is going to start healing himself. Not incredible damage, but enough to be considered a problem for the team.

If your build starts relying on the monks too much...guess what? You'll die. I've seen mesmers who use inspiration laugh at me when I suggested to put spirit of failure in their build. Rangers who refuse to use dryder's defence or lightning reflexes, yet they think conjure flame is going to save them from an axe warrior. No price of failure on a cursing necro? You're dead.

This is why teams lose. People don't like the idea of not killing a target within a 0.5 seconds, yet when they face a defensive team, they die and start blaming each other.

A good build is the one with offences, defences, and counters. As well as being STRONG in the role they play for the team build. The more you burdern the monks, the bigger chance you'll die quickly. Monks are nothing more then a SAFETY NET for when the shit hits the fan. They are not there for your well-being, you are. Defensive skills and counters allow you to delay the death so the monks would be like "WTF...gotta heal that biatch".

Marky out.

- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (a dark tech fantasy webcomic)

Each character in a build serves a specific purpose, whether as a support, damage , disruption, healing, etc.

Each character in any build should be dedicated to one or perhaps two of these tasks, anymore and you are diversifying your skills too much to be effective. So for example the W/Mo premade has both the capability to attack with a sword and heal, but what is the point as an attack class if you can't deal enough damage to force monks to react with more than an orisons or two on your target? And at the same time you won't be able to heal an ally (or yourself) as well as a monk, mainly because of class constraints. So you now have character that can't do anything in particular well, and 2 roles rather poorly.

That is not to say that you can't have particular character have a dual role, but the options are limited b/c of class constraints and how the skills work together. Having a spike build(blood, ranger, warrior take your pick)coupled with enchantment removal or some potent hex(es) will work well, but having that same build along with say, hex removal or healing won't work as well, to provide some examples.

To run contrary to what you declared in your conclusion, the more you divesify and water down your build with over redudant skills the less you will be able to accomplish, having everyone on your team be self sufficient in terms of healing and conditions means you won't be able to put a dent in the other team. Defensive skills on non-priority targets in your build serves only to delay the inevitable and having everyone on your team have a form of defense detracts from their role in the team build ever so much. You state that the best builds are strong in all three categories, while this would be true if it was possible, it simply isn't.

Rey Lentless · Oct 01, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

The problem with edrain and tap were the fact they drained AND gave you energy. They are skills that made the rest of your bar better, while still screwing someone else. They decided to make the 'screw' part lesser, and that's perfectly fair. You can still use these skills to add energy to yourself to allow you to use your other skills more often.. but they do have a lesser effect on the opponent.. as they should. If you want to deny energy, there are still great options out there for you and even easier than before with the ease of interuption.

As for the warrior with limited damage ability... yah.. not too bright. The build itself should have counters, defense, offense, etc.. but you still have to have a level of specialization to make yourself efficient and effective. While you do make it more difficult to shut down when you have less specified roles, you're also much less powerful.

I don't like war/r and I do think a warr can add something else to it's bar that's utility.. but that should be done while still maintaining a high damage output.

Forboding Angel · Oct 01, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I agree with all of that except necros needing price of failure.

Actually, necros could make warriors kill themselves easily. For example, POF, guardian, another evade skill, insidious parasite, etc.

I really like soloing warriors with my necro. I have quite enough tricks up my sleeve to never run out of energy while dealing massive damage. BTW I despise mesmers =)

FOr a support oriented necro POF is an excellent addition. It simply depends on what type of build you are after.

So to end, I agree and disagree at the same time

I wish people would realize that damage necros are the best for taking out heavily armored targets such as warriors and rangers. The damage ignores armor and kills very quickly. Now eles are typically the best for taking out weaker armored targets. Ele's damage takes armor into account, so you want to use eles on things that don't have armor, like monks, necros, mesmers and other eles, making them a very nice all around addition to your build.

Ahh well I'm getting way off topic and I only mentioned 2 classes. ok I'm done

@op Excellent post BTW

arredondo · Oct 01, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkyX

Elites are supposed to be powerful, but they are not supposed to be "end all, be all" of skills.

Lingering curse is powerful, but a simple hex removal will get rid of it.

Eviscerate is awesome, but can be evaded or block, and requires heavy ald.

The thing is, energy drain and tap had no counter to it. The only way to defend against an e-drainer is to simply drain them back.

And even though you don't completely drain the target, the point is that they are denied that energy, while you get your energy back. Was there any real sacrifice in your part? No. You used your skills, screwed him up, and you still have your energy. You can now energy burn another target, back fire another, or use diversion. Meanwhile, your victim has to wait to recharge. By the time he is fully charged, guess what? E-drain again.

What made it worse is that even monks could play energy denial as well.

Anyone with any experience in PvP, including top guilds like IVEX and Nuclear Launch Detected would back me up on this. Energy denial is a very powerful tactic, but the pre-update made it too powerful.

End all be all? Please, point to ONE POST in this entire website (from before the change) that cried for Energy Drain nerf. Show me one! It was already fair because it took a decent amount and had a decent recharge. The target is somewhat screwed up TEMPORARILY (plus he still has other energy), and is in full health. I took up 3 slots and have to wait 50 seconds to do the combo again.

There's a reason why there is no complaints about the old version. There's a reason why the game isn't swarming with AE Energy Drainers. It's because it was a nice technique to do but in no way even close to being overpowered. One gimp to the skill is one thing, but two gimps (50% less drain, 50% longer recharge) is absolutely ridiculous.

Zelc · Oct 01, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Please, point to ONE POST in this entire website (from before the change) that cried for Energy Drain nerf.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=energy+drain
"It is come to my attention that PvP has been hitting down the crapper lately, yet again. Ether Renewal is still a godly elite among elementists, smites are still around, IWAY is the new deal, newbs think all ranger builds work, energy drain, and GvG has become of game of "let's masterbate furiously for 30 minutes since those five monk/mesmers are now playing energy denial healers.""

"As for the EP build, what they do is get Mo/Me with energy drain, and simply stall the other team and drain them. You can't kill them, and they won't kill you. They stall until Victory or Death, when all the NPCs move away from the positions, and the three attackers on EP will gank your lord."

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t=energy+drain
"Energy denial is imo a pretty big issue. When concerning shutdown, you have a couple of choices: hexes like guilt/shame (screwed somewhat by NR), interrupts like power leak, and energy denial like edrain. But I honestly don't see that these are balanced at all. Energy Drain, Debilitating Shot, and Fear me! are the top 3 energy denial skills and can be tailored to make edenial far stronger than normal shutdown. With interrupts you have to be skilled and react fast. Doesn't leave much room for errors without something like arcane connundrum on. Hexes are vulnerable to removal. A big part of that is that like Blackace said, energy management skills are mostly elite and those that aren't elite (like attunements) are not the greatest thing. And the best way to shutdown an elite is with signet of humility."

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...=energy+denial
Energy drain wins the poll with 62 votes.

http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...=energy+denial
"We completely drained out basicly everyone except their warriors."

"Yes it is overpowered along with a number of other elites being underpowered or just crap this skill becomes the only viable elite skill for a number of classes. Mesmers are basically required to use this elite skill because all of the other skills are pointless and all healing monks should be using this skill seeing as how it is the best form of energy management on the market.

Also any other profession speccing as an anti caster or any class having energy issues is basically required to use this skill due to the other poor options of energy management. So while it is overpowered I would like other skills buffed instead of nerfing this one.

P.S. your build didn't really show why it is over powered since we couldnt see the enemies energy but it did do a good job of showing how it outclasses all other energy elites in the game. Barring ether renewel anyway because that skill is 10 times worse than e drain will ever be."

"ED's the most overpowered skill in the game."

Enough?

MarkyX · Oct 01, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

To run contrary to what you declared in your conclusion, the more you divesify and water down your build with over redudant skills the less you will be able to accomplish, having everyone on your team be self sufficient in terms of healing and conditions means you won't be able to put a dent in the other team. Defensive skills on non-priority targets in your build serves only to delay the inevitable and having everyone on your team have a form of defense detracts from their role in the team build ever so much.

Come back to me when your monks have Arcane Conundrum, backfire, and conjure phastasm, while your elementist is getting drained, your necro is busy getting his ass kicked by an interrupt ranger, and your precious W/R cannot do anything because he has shadow of fear and is crippled.

It's because of players like you and your one-track mind that the quality of PvP players is seriously lacking.

Another thing, don't twist my words around. I never said anything about healing. I said counters and defences, as in Spirit of Failure to make those warriors miss, stances evade blows or run, and hex removals when the monks are getting bombared with them.

Hell, if you play a W/R, bring a freaking antidote signet.

MarkyX · Oct 01, 2005, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Actually, necros could make warriors kill themselves easily. For example, POF, guardian, another evade skill, insidious parasite, etc.

Yeah they can, if you plan on doing an entirely anti-tank.

if I plan on bringing a curse necro, I'll bring shadow of fear or price of failure just in case there is warrior train on our target OR they are after me.

This is called defence, aka "delaying the inevitable". A monk does not have super human reflexes.

Quote:

I wish people would realize that damage necros are the best for taking out heavily armored targets such as warriors and rangers. The damage ignores armor and kills very quickly. Now eles are typically the best for taking out weaker armored targets. Ele's damage takes armor into account, so you want to use eles on things that don't have armor, like monks, necros, mesmers and other eles, making them a very nice all around addition to your build.

I really disagree here.

An illusion mesmer will do a much better job pwning the warrior then a necro. They have many snares, degen, both things a warrior cannot stand (and something that totally ignores armor)

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Oct 01, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Well, that's not really entirely true. a Necro combined with the right other profession will take out a Warrior just aswell. I'm building a Hydro/Necro lately. He seems like he'll be best suited to anti-tanking.

Rey Lentless · Oct 01, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

It's because of players like you and your one-track mind that the quality of PvP players is seriously lacking.

It sounds like you're coming from competition arenas. Antidote signet, with martyr, draw, restore, and mend available? I don't think so. Your warrior was called a noob for a reason. There are jobs done better by other team members, and watering yourself down so you can do a few jobs poorly, isn't going to win you anything.

MarkyX · Oct 01, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

It sounds like you're coming from competition arenas. Antidote signet, with martyr, draw, restore, and mend available? I don't think so. Your warrior was called a noob for a reason. There are jobs done better by other team members, and watering yourself down so you can do a few jobs poorly, isn't going to win you anything.

My new sigil today says you're wrong.

EDIT: Btw, do you know remove hex and purge conditions require nothing in monk attributes, right?

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Oct 01, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Eh ignore me, posted late.